Does ranged DD with orange armor make the tank obsolete?

rewand

The new runic items have been available for long enough that many players are getting teams outfitted with all/mostly orange armor. Since one of the glaring problems with HoD is the fact that a felt hat can protect a spell caster as well as a steal helm protects a tank the question comes up as to whether or not the tank is needed in the end-game.

Consulting the spreadsheet we can see that fully upgraded orange armor is mostly equivalent across classes:

Helm, Hat, Hood = 539.
Armor, Robe, Leather = 541.
Boots, Espadrille , DD boots ~= 539

The only real difference is that true Tanks also get a shield item (oddly missing from the runic collection). A fully upgrade Wolfbane or Manica boost a Tank's armor by 601. My Felmor and/or Nar'Ghal have AC of 2225 but Oda maxes out at 1618. On the other hand, ranged units tend to need less armor because they often don't take damage when facing melee units, particularly slow ones.

Does this mean that in the end-game the tank is obsolete? I went thru the "war without end" mission using Kassia, Oda, Grazz and Tlanak. I didn't find it any easier than when I have Felmor or Narhgal instead of Grazz. Actually, Oda died but in fairness it was because I got so used to shooting anything on the board that I triggered one of the non auto-attack fights before getting ready. I haven't tried the "impossible" Dungeon Keeper mission with three shooters though and I suspect that the armor could make a difference there. After all, getting over the one-hit-kill threshold is the easiest way to win that fight.

I don't know, it seems a viable way to play but it does change the dynamic. The most obvious thing I see is that when a tank wounds/attracts/taunts a tank they keep fighting that tank. With the ranged hitters they tend to aggro on Oda (strongest) unless one of the other shooters has a temporary bonus e.g. supersonic. This certainly makes the game different. To me it seems more random but that could be a lack of skill/experience on my part.

Thoughts?

Eziekial

I agree except that as a third person I find Nar'Ghal does more damage overall than Grazzak or another ranged. I have him with and orange lvl 6 items and his damage is about 1300 normal and 2700 crits.

My team is Nhargal kassia. Oda and Tlanac.

On the very hard dungeon keeper I use the same group but still get 1 shot.

I know the runics have been out awhile and I play decently alot but I only have 2 maxed out items as working on a third. How many do you have???

SeTaS

I have 3 runic maxed out orange @ level 10
2 runic orange @ level 8.
2 runic purples.
but running out of runeshards (10) and soon runes (800).

about tank.
I think it is more controlable game with tank.
cause everyone attacking one hero. and need to heal just one. thats exception when need to heal someone else.
without him agro attacking one DD, than other... more chance to miss that and to be killed.

agree that tank IS unnecessary now. but in the future, in the harder levels it will be.
for example 4 mobs with two-hit-kill. DD wont be able to hold that. but tank will block some of the hits. he have more health.

My main party at party level 260:
TANK fel'mor:
DMG 1027 (legendary decimator III @level9 low grade)
DEF 2123 (runic helm, armor, boots @level 10, legendary wolbane III @level9 high grade)
HEALTH 2916 (two ruby necklace VI)

DD Grazzak:
DMG 1425 (legendary triple rifle @level10)
DEF 1306 (legendary helm, armor @8, runic boots @level9)
HEALTH 2320 (demon stone VI, Jade ring V)

DD Kassia:
DMG 1388 (legendary aether bow @level10)
DEF 1184 (legendary helm, armor, boots @8)
HEALTH 2310 (demon stone VI, Jade ring V)

HEALER Nyx:
DMG 975 (legendary spirit rod III @level8 low grade)
DEF 1254 (legendary helm, boots @8, runic armor @level8)
HEALTH 2480 (two ruby necklace V)

it's pitty that you can't see the block rate, attack speed, hit rate and etc. it's more difficult to compare.
but in any case tanks are getting HP, and block. so they can take more damage from more mobs. did not tryed to complete last mission with no tank. but will try after work.

agree that difference between DD and tank should be a lot more...

so there is some space to have better main party. but not much. and will reach soon almost best (for my opinion) with exception of healer and tank low grade items. dont know will, or will not get high grade of them.

I think will quit the game soon. untill the new release. because wont be able to do something to be better. i would like to upgrade all runic items, but have no runeshards, and getting those VERY rarely (last weekend just 1 runeshard). to upgrade fully to orange need 36 runeshards...

I prefer runic just because IF there will be items tier 7 runic's will upgrade to tier 7. and it won't be wasted. (am I right?)

crazyaddict

Runic is better other than the legendary rifle because it won't turn obsolete when you move to new tier.

Three ranged and tlanac is the best, though you have to get used to it. Kassia is necessary for ice arrow. After that, it's a combo of Oda, grazz or zdar. I prefer Oda and zdar since they have multiple mob skills and strong single boss skill. The trick is not just use legendary weapons. Use at least one venom weapon. One venom plus the legendary rifle with headshot skill can take out a strong enemy. My headshot does 15k dmg non crit. I regularly crit for 9k with Oda.

While grazz is nice with the super fast skill, his lack of mob control (sleeping gas recharges too slowly) meant I prefer Oda to him. If grazz has ice arrow equivalent, I would replace kassia with him. The bow girls don't shoot very fast at all but are quite necessary for icing a hard boss.

SeTaS

I like combineing venom and good dmg too.
my grazzak does crit 12k smg with fury, venom and felmor war shout for higher damg and attack speed. question:
does it stack? grazzak's fury and felmor's war shout?

my z'dar has venom weapon. it's awesome. especialy in HH event:
kassia, Z'dar, grazzak, o'da...

and I started to like o'da.

SeTaS

and one more...
it's not only orange armor makes tank obsolete.
it's good weapon too
simply killing them faster than they can kill you.
with no good weapon, orange armor won't help...

rewand

SeTaS wrote: »

it's not only orange armor makes tank obsolete.
it's good weapon too
simply killing them faster than they can kill you.
with no good weapon, orange armor won't help...

Hmmm.. So you are saying that in addition to the armor, you need fast killing ability in order to obsolete the role of Tank. In other words, if the enemy is too strong and comes too fast you still need a tank. Basically what I hypothesized in the initial post-- that the "impossible" Dungeon Keeper mission might require a Tank?

crazyaddict

rewand wrote: »

Hmmm.. So you are saying that in addition to the armor, you need fast killing ability in order to obsolete the role of Tank. In other words, if the enemy is too strong and comes too fast you still need a tank. Basically what I hypothesized in the initial post-- that the "impossible" Dungeon Keeper mission might require a Tank?

Not necessarily. Either zdar or Oda can quickly nullify any mobs. If they come in single files, three ranged can easily deal with singles. If they are stunned or panicked, they won't attack. I give all three a stun ring and a chaos stone each. Also Zdar's eq is 100% stun while Oda's bomb is 100% chaos. If you need just the firepower, either Zdar's first skill or Oda's third skill will deliver enough damage.

SeTaS

why tlanac? because of healing over time?
i prefer nyx.
because she can control the croud of mobs, or single boss (lock them like kassia's ice arrow). and even deal a lot of damage.

SeTaS

rewand wrote: »

Hmmm.. So you are saying that in addition to the armor, you need fast killing ability in order to obsolete the role of Tank. In other words, if the enemy is too strong and comes too fast you still need a tank. Basically what I hypothesized in the initial post-- that the "impossible" Dungeon Keeper mission might require a Tank?

for now... good weapon not necessarily. but after next update, you won't be able to kill them as fast as you are killing now. and they will do more damage.
and because of that, you will receive much more damage. that DD not always will be able to handle.
for now I take almost no hit even in the hardest dungeons. because i'm killing them very fast.

I agree that for NOW tank is obsolette. but in the future it will be necessary. (or at least I hope, that game will be balanced pretty well to be needed of tank)

rewand

SeTaS wrote: »

why tlanac? because of healing over time?
i prefer nyx.
because she can control the croud of mobs, or single boss (lock them like kassia's ice arrow). and even deal a lot of damage.

I nix Nyxx for personal reasons. I understand that she is a succubus and thus provocative but her portrayal goes too far in my book. It encourages female objectification and misogynistic stereotypes. Besides I have kids in the room.