Let's talk about Crit

Sikarios

Hey everyone, first post here. Been lurking for a while though.

I have done a little bit of experimenting with the crit chance and crit damage weapon upgrades and wanted to see what you all think or know about it.

First, obviously there is a trade-off as you must sacrifice raw damage in order to get either of these bonuses. Also, we don't know what the base crit rate is, nor the base crit damage. Those would be very helpful to know in order to crunch numbers and theorycraft this stuff out. Another thing to consider is the addition of the General's Helm, which provides a whole new mechanic, in favor of a crit-heavy build.

I have a fully upgraded Mystery Axe with 149 of fire/ice/poison, and 2 crit chance (7%) bonuses. I used it for a while but I don't love it, and even with the upgrades it doesn't crit very reliably. Once I finally got the General's Helm I rerolled a Dragon Breaker with only crit chance: 14%x3 and 13%x2 for a total of 68% increased crit chance. I really like playing with it, crits so often that with the General's Helm you can pretty much dash constantly and never run out of rage. The damage output is very nice also.

Here are some numbers (although I don't know the game mechanics so this is just theoretical at the moment)
Let's assume base crit is 5% and critical hits deal an additional 50% damage.
Using the Dragon Breaker as an example, if it is completely maxed with only +attack, it will have 4804 damage. Comparing that to the other extreme of only getting +crit chance, it will have 4046 damage and 70% crit.

For the pure damage Dragon Breaker, the effective damage will be (4804 + 4804 x ( 5%(crit chance) x 0.5(crit damage))) = 4924
For the pure crit Dragon Breaker we get (4046 + 4046 x 75% x 0.5) = 5563
If instead of crit chance we got the crit damage bonus (20% for each upgrade for a total of 100%), we would get (4046 + 4046 x 5% x 1.0) = 4248

Combinations of +crit chance and +crit damage will fall in between these numbers, but pure crit is the clear winner even if my guesstimation of 5% base crit chance and 50% base crit damage isn't correct.

Hmmmm...


Sik

Sikarios

Mystery Axe Numbers:
Pure crit: effective damage = 6892
Pure damage: effective damage = 6220

Looks like I will be hitting the Mystery Box for another axe so I can make a pure crit one!

Long story short, I think I answered my own question that I had at the beginning of this thread, and that answer is:

get crit chance bonus, it's the best weapon stat

stew

wait u have a breaker with all critical hit on it?

Sikarios

Yeah, it has 14, 13, 14, 14, 13, total of 68% increase. It hits hard and crits often, and with the General Helm it's very hard to run out of rage.

Chineseman

Do skills crit? Or does crit only apply to normal attacks?

Sikarios

Yes, all attacks and skills crit, and the chance is on a per-hit basis. In other words, when you dash at an enemy at a close range, it hits them like 5 times and each of those hits have a chance to crit.

Chineseman

Hmm yes I've seen the Dash and Spin crit, but I haven't seen Charge or Parry ever crit.

And if they don't crit, do the skills take into account the additional element attacks or just the base weapon damage?

arun365

Just my opinion -Critic may look good for faster killing but still attribute values is very important & its base for efficient & quick killiing say for mystery axe 4580 attribute for 6013(6020)
Dragon bane 3481 attribute for 5017(5053)

Imrulkz

arun365 wrote: »

Just my opinion -Critic may look good for faster killing but still attribute values is very important & its base for efficient & quick killiing say for mystery axe 4580 attribute for 6013(6020)
Dragon bane 3481 attribute for 5017(5053)

My breaker haved 19,19,18 crit damage,14, 14 crit change. Do more damage when using charge and parrying.

arun365

Still my mystery axe 6013(6020) kills very fast than breaker critic

Imrulkz

arun365 wrote: »

Still my mystery axe 6013(6020) kills very fast than breaker critic

Do u have any advise how to get msytery axe? Im trying everyday but nothing

Chineseman

@ Sikarios:

What's the highest crit chance that you were able to roll for with the Mystery Axe? Could it be the same with the Dragon Breaker?

K_OtiC

Nope' I just finished some test weapons breaker 5*14% chance, breaker 3*14% chance 2*20% damage & mystery Axe 4*7% chance 16% damage 33% damage. The 3*14% 2*20% breaker seems to preform the best. The 5*14% barely crits more then the 3*14% the mystery is better at one hitting trash mobs but can't keep your rage bar as full as breaker so if you don't rage pot the breaker is in front in terms of speed when coupled with the generals helm. I'll see if I can find good footage recording software to test better I just did a few solo br4 up to wave 4 and solo ft10.

Sikarios

K_otic said it, but yeah the best possible for breaker is 14% on crit chance, 20% on crit damage. On mystery axe the max is 7% for crit chance and 16% for crit damage. So for a maxed mystery axe you could do 35% crit chance, or you could do 80% increased crit damage, or a mixture thereof.

K_otic, you're saying that 70% increased crit barely crits more than 42% increased crit? That doesn't make any sense. If only we knew the actual amount of damage a crit normally does, then we could show a better calculation of which is better, but regardless of that I still believe the 5*14% is the max possible damage output. However, it could also depend on the defense of the monsters you're fighting, i.e., your 2*20%+3*14% maybe would work better on a high def monster because even though you crit less, it hits harder when you do crit, and cuts through the defense better.

Idk!

Sikarios

Also to note, I have a pretty good technique utilizing the high crit breaker with the general helm, I want you to try it on your 3x14%/2x20% and see how it works! Dash->Spin->Normal atk->Dash->Spin->Normal atk etc etc. The normal attack breaks the combo, allowing you to dash/spin again immediately after, killing stuff way fast. With the rage regen your rage bar will literally stay at max for the whole round, and so far this is the fast I've been able to clear BR4 (multiplayer, but fighting solo, with a dead teammate, which is how it usually goes lol). I had just under a minute left on the timer after most of the rounds. Also, doing this in single player BR4 it's like cheating lol.

Edit: yea I just timed BR4 solo with this method, each round finished in about 30secs, some less.

K_OtiC

Once I get a 10~15 hit combo crits are like almost every swing. If you test with a regular weapon it seems you need about 30 combo then you start to see crits more often, so I think the crit system builds up. More combo equals more crits so once you hit the 40~50% area you start to see more crits from the 10+ combo range with the difference in damage killing things much faster.

Also I noticed specials like charge, dash & parry only crit when you actually hit the monster physically. So if I charge up and let go without being close to a monster I don't crit, but if my weapon/s touch them I have a chance to crit.

The biggest damage chain when you have all skills maxed out is charge attack followed by a full normal attack chain then dash spin ground smash. Skipping max charge skill costs you damage over time effect same for ground smash you miss out on the damage over time which is damaging the mob in the background of your other attacks, not following charge with a full normal chain & going right into a dash attack gives monsters the chance to parry you pushing you back costing you time and dps to get back to them.

lvlark02

you have to balanced the crit, so a mixed of chance & damage is advisable than having full chance or full damage.

K_OtiC

Latest test weapon




Need to do some swings per minute testing definitely has more damage & range then breaker, but need to see if there is a difference in swings per minute.

ChrisTot

Now THESE are the weapons I like seeing, haha! What do you think of the fully +101 (all attack) Mystery Axe? I'm 2 upgrades away. It's painful hitting other stats of 101 or 100 attack, haha.

K_OtiC

Shamefully I just finished testing attack rates and all heavy weapons are far behind two weapons in attacks per minute & amount of attacks in dash combos. So mystery is way behind dragon breaker.

ChrisTot

I saw that in your other thread! So you're saying if I"m 2 slots away from full attack stats i think it's 154 for Breaker? and 101 for mystery Axe, that I should go for the Breaker? Man, why do they even release an update with a new weapon if it's not as good as what's already been out :P

lvlark02

i think they just forgot to nerf breaker

ChrisTot

Confirmed! The Breaker with 1 upgrade left with +149 attack on each..don't ask me how long this is taking) kills things faster than the Axe with full +101 attacks (still missing the last 2 upgrades for it though).

Darkmox

K_OtiC wrote: »

Shamefully I just finished testing attack rates and all heavy weapons are far behind two weapons in attacks per minute & amount of attacks in dash combos. So mystery is way behind dragon breaker.

I never took time to measure but when you've spend lot of time with a weapon it's quite easy to 'feel' if another one is doing better or not. I tried several 2H and always ended up coming back to breaker..

One think I noticed is that charge and parry are doing way more damage with breaker than with top end 2H weapons. Do you experiments show that as well or am I just dreaming?

I can't compare with Mystery Axe, I've been hitting the box during days without success, could not be bothered wasting my time with such crap anymore...

K_OtiC

Darkmox wrote: »

I never took time to measure but when you've spend lot of time with a weapon it's quite easy to 'feel' if another one is doing better or not. I tried several 2H and always ended up coming back to breaker..

One think I noticed is that charge and parry are doing way more damage with breaker than with top end 2H weapons. Do you experiments show that as well or am I just dreaming?

I can't compare with Mystery Axe, I've been hitting the box during days without success, could not be bothered wasting my time with such crap anymore...

Yea parry is stronger, charge is the same damage changes if you hit with one side of the wave or both is when the damage changes. Also the further away you are the better it seems to double wave damage.

Darkmox

K_OtiC wrote: »

Yea parry is stronger, charge is the same damage changes if you hit with one side of the wave or both is when the damage changes. Also the further away you are the better it seems to double wave damage.

I think you're right with the double damage on charge and it's easy to do on enemies with a large hit box like big guards or minotaures for instance.
Hopefully next release will contain new 1H weapons, breaker have been there for a while now -_-

Imrulkz

K_OtiC wrote: »

Shamefully I just finished testing attack rates and all heavy weapons are far behind two weapons in attacks per minute & amount of attacks in dash combos. So mystery is way behind dragon breaker.

I've seen one player using msytery axe on MP mode, i using breaker critic and i can kill a monster faster than Axe atleast 2:1, 2:1 mean is i can kill 2 monster but Axe only one in wave 3,4 BR 4.

lauapik

I upgraded another set of Dragon Breaker with the following:
Thunder 3
Fire 3
Ice 3
Critical hit rate 25 (total)
Critical damage 56 (total)
I find it slightly better when used in Black Dragon'ls Lair (Hard Mode) but not as good as my other Breaker in Boss Rush 4.

I think, in general, the higher the attribute the better the weapon should be. But there are exceptions. I find even the Mystery Axe is useless compared to my Breaker though the attrib is much higher. Then again I met a level 57 player with Heartless Glass Blades with a max of 1418 taking out the big bosses in Boss 4 but just TAPPING them ONCE and they just drop dead and there I was struggling just to survive. There were two other players like that but I could not communicate with them as they were not Anglo-speaking so cant find out how they do this.

seazn

sorry to jump in the end game discussion but information are overflowing

seems like most people are saying Breaker is better. my question is do you HAVE to use General Helm? if I dont use general helm, should i just not bother with crit?

Also, can you please let me know how many gems it cost for each level of Breaker? I'm just trying to compare between Dragon Bane and Breaker to see which one is crazier to upgrade

Sikarios

Breaker just does a lot more damage overall, regardless of crit and regardless of the general's helm. Something in the way the damage is calculated for 2-handed weapons versus dual wielded 1-handed weapons, especially with skills like parry and charge.

ChrisTot

It's also worth noting that Dragon's Bane is a great weapon to level up SO that you can grind the level 5 elements for the breaker. The breaker ends up being 40 level 5, then 50 level 5, then 100 level 5. So that's 190 elements total for the last 3 upgrades. I don't remember how much the bane is off the top of my head, but it's MUCH MUCH less. For me, I updated Dragon's Bane until I could do the first two upgrades for the breaker. After that, I switched to the breaker and am now trying to grind my last 60 or so level 5 elements. I haven't dedicated as much time to the game as some though, ha